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	<title>Comments on: Metaverse 2.0 &#8212; Topology and Trust</title>
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	<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust</link>
	<description>Advanced Technology Research</description>
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		<title>By: avi</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-5303</link>
		<dc:creator>avi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-5303</guid>
		<description>Ah, Morgaine, I&#039;m going to delete my previous response to you. I think most people reading the article above and your post will conclude that you simply didn&#039;t follow what I wrote and decided to divert with rants about DRM and open source. The scheme I proposed is in fact server-side, but it doesn&#039;t require centralizing the whole world. It is possible to have an open-server architecture where anyone can run their own part of the world and still have a central authority for validating important transactions. Such a model exists today -- only the number, speed, and size of transactions would change significantly.

Anyway, I really don&#039;t like your tone. You&#039;re a borderline troll. So don&#039;t bother responding yet again. 

As for Linden, I&#039;m sure they&#039;ll make money before this latest bubble bursts. However, I personally wouldn&#039;t want to be forever known as the AOL of virtual worlds. 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Morgaine, I&#8217;m going to delete my previous response to you. I think most people reading the article above and your post will conclude that you simply didn&#8217;t follow what I wrote and decided to divert with rants about DRM and open source. The scheme I proposed is in fact server-side, but it doesn&#8217;t require centralizing the whole world. It is possible to have an open-server architecture where anyone can run their own part of the world and still have a central authority for validating important transactions. Such a model exists today &#8212; only the number, speed, and size of transactions would change significantly.</p>
<p>Anyway, I really don&#8217;t like your tone. You&#8217;re a borderline troll. So don&#8217;t bother responding yet again. </p>
<p>As for Linden, I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;ll make money before this latest bubble bursts. However, I personally wouldn&#8217;t want to be forever known as the AOL of virtual worlds.</p>
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		<title>By: Morgaine</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-5299</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgaine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-5299</guid>
		<description>&gt; &quot;I don’t want someone coming in with a hacked client with unlimited powers or infinite resources&quot;

You really need to bring your worldview out of 1990&#039;s. avi.  The only kind of client that&#039;s going to get any significant cross-world mindshare is an open one.  The open meme has taken hold, and isn&#039;t going to disappear.

And that means that if you have powers or resources to guard, then you have to guard them server-side, because nothing that happens client-side is in your power to restrict.  This was true even before open-source became huge.  It was just a bit harder to modify binaries before, so fewer people could do it, but certainly not impossible.

Linden Labs understands this, as well as the fallacy that underlies DRM, and refuses to get into a pointless arms race with their customers.  Indeed, they have open-sourced their client so that they can ride on the shoulders of giants instead of fighting them.  If you continue to see these issues through the eyes of a previous generation, and see users and their clients as adversaries as your phrase above suggests, then things are not going to go well for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; &#8220;I don’t want someone coming in with a hacked client with unlimited powers or infinite resources&#8221;</p>
<p>You really need to bring your worldview out of 1990&#8217;s. avi.  The only kind of client that&#8217;s going to get any significant cross-world mindshare is an open one.  The open meme has taken hold, and isn&#8217;t going to disappear.</p>
<p>And that means that if you have powers or resources to guard, then you have to guard them server-side, because nothing that happens client-side is in your power to restrict.  This was true even before open-source became huge.  It was just a bit harder to modify binaries before, so fewer people could do it, but certainly not impossible.</p>
<p>Linden Labs understands this, as well as the fallacy that underlies DRM, and refuses to get into a pointless arms race with their customers.  Indeed, they have open-sourced their client so that they can ride on the shoulders of giants instead of fighting them.  If you continue to see these issues through the eyes of a previous generation, and see users and their clients as adversaries as your phrase above suggests, then things are not going to go well for you.</p>
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		<title>By: baack to the future &#187; tag &#8212; you&#8217;re it</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-584</link>
		<dc:creator>baack to the future &#187; tag &#8212; you&#8217;re it</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 06:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-584</guid>
		<description>[...] Really enjoyed Avi&#8217;s thoughts on P2P 3.D, a good read, particularly if you found my relatively rather sparse comments on the subject at all intriguing. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Really enjoyed Avi&#8217;s thoughts on P2P 3.D, a good read, particularly if you found my relatively rather sparse comments on the subject at all intriguing. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Prompt Criticality</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-583</link>
		<dc:creator>Prompt Criticality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jun 2006 02:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-583</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;[Editorial Note: This is Cory&#039;s blog entry on the subject. Cory is one of the prime architects of Second Life and continues to run their technical development.]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;First There Was the Grid...&lt;/strong&gt;  3pointD linked to an interesting article on Ogle Earth entitled &quot;Metaverse 2.0&quot; which talks about the fact that Google Earth and Second Life are modeled on the real Earth and a flat Earth, respectively. It argues that SL in particular...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>[Editorial Note: This is Cory's blog entry on the subject. Cory is one of the prime architects of Second Life and continues to run their technical development.]</p>
<p>First There Was the Grid&#8230;</strong>  3pointD linked to an interesting article on Ogle Earth entitled &quot;Metaverse 2.0&quot; which talks about the fact that Google Earth and Second Life are modeled on the real Earth and a flat Earth, respectively. It argues that SL in particular&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: The Other Here &#187; Where 3pointD: Second Life, Google Earth, and Space</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-582</link>
		<dc:creator>The Other Here &#187; Where 3pointD: Second Life, Google Earth, and Space</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-582</guid>
		<description>[...] A really cool conversation is breaking out between Avi Bar-Ze&#8217;ev&#8217;s blog, Stephan Geen&#8217;s Ogle Earth, and Mark Wallace&#8217;s 3pointD. (csven also hops on the comments at 3pointD, pointing to Peter Molyneux&#8217;s The Room). They&#8217;re talking about Second Life, Google Earth, and the ways in which space should be represented and navigated in the metaverse and 3D virtual worlds. Whereas Google Earth necessarily maps the flat, round, Euclidean dimensions of the planet, Second Life does not have to though at present it is still contiguous or all connected on one flat map. So what&#8217;s the best way to map and navigate a network of virtual spaces? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A really cool conversation is breaking out between Avi Bar-Ze&#8217;ev&#8217;s blog, Stephan Geen&#8217;s Ogle Earth, and Mark Wallace&#8217;s 3pointD. (csven also hops on the comments at 3pointD, pointing to Peter Molyneux&#8217;s The Room). They&#8217;re talking about Second Life, Google Earth, and the ways in which space should be represented and navigated in the metaverse and 3D virtual worlds. Whereas Google Earth necessarily maps the flat, round, Euclidean dimensions of the planet, Second Life does not have to though at present it is still contiguous or all connected on one flat map. So what&#8217;s the best way to map and navigate a network of virtual spaces? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: avi</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-581</link>
		<dc:creator>avi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 14:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-581</guid>
		<description>Yes. The idea I probably didn&#039;t express well was that, while Goggle Earth and most MMOs nowadays are true 3D worlds, at least locally, on the global scale, they&#039;re effectively 2D--meaning their worlds are pretty flat in the 3rd dimension overall, despite being wrapped on a sphere in GE&#039;s case and having mountains and buildings in both. (Here, topology obviously means connectivity, not terrain.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Taking any such &quot;effectively-2D&quot; space and bending the whole thing to any non-holed continuous shape, no matter how extreme, is roughly equivalent for an ant on the ground. Flat, elliptic, hyperbolic, matter only insofar as they form new connections (seams, folds, short-cuts, and warps) as in the case with GE&#039;s sphere, which makes it so east and west meet; or even a torus, which does the same for north and south. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example, you could take GE and wrap the data to the &lt;em&gt;inside&lt;/em&gt; of the sphere and it would work roughly the same. The principal difference would be that the horizon slopes up and if you go to the middle and relax your FOV, you can see roughly 1/2 the world at a time. I did such a thought experiment of a VW in my first novel, but I called the space RealityPrime. Imagine what the metaphor is if the Metaverse is the Earth, just inside out and right under our feet. I&#039;m not sure people would actually like that. :)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Metaverse 2.0, if decentralized, would need to work more like the web, handling discontinuities and arbitrary connections, where we lose the nice metaphor of one big flat space and wind up using graph theory to draw our maps. But I think we agree on that. The challenge is how to make it all feel seamless, despite the natural discontinuities, where distance may be measured more in &quot;hops&quot; than in kilometers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. The idea I probably didn&#8217;t express well was that, while Goggle Earth and most MMOs nowadays are true 3D worlds, at least locally, on the global scale, they&#8217;re effectively 2D&#8211;meaning their worlds are pretty flat in the 3rd dimension overall, despite being wrapped on a sphere in GE&#8217;s case and having mountains and buildings in both. (Here, topology obviously means connectivity, not terrain.)</p>
<p>Taking any such &quot;effectively-2D&quot; space and bending the whole thing to any non-holed continuous shape, no matter how extreme, is roughly equivalent for an ant on the ground. Flat, elliptic, hyperbolic, matter only insofar as they form new connections (seams, folds, short-cuts, and warps) as in the case with GE&#8217;s sphere, which makes it so east and west meet; or even a torus, which does the same for north and south. </p>
<p>For example, you could take GE and wrap the data to the <em>inside</em> of the sphere and it would work roughly the same. The principal difference would be that the horizon slopes up and if you go to the middle and relax your FOV, you can see roughly 1/2 the world at a time. I did such a thought experiment of a VW in my first novel, but I called the space RealityPrime. Imagine what the metaphor is if the Metaverse is the Earth, just inside out and right under our feet. I&#8217;m not sure people would actually like that. <img src='http://www.realityprime.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Metaverse 2.0, if decentralized, would need to work more like the web, handling discontinuities and arbitrary connections, where we lose the nice metaphor of one big flat space and wind up using graph theory to draw our maps. But I think we agree on that. The challenge is how to make it all feel seamless, despite the natural discontinuities, where distance may be measured more in &quot;hops&quot; than in kilometers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ogle Earth</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-580</link>
		<dc:creator>Ogle Earth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-580</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Metaverse 2.0...&lt;/strong&gt;

Over the past few weeks, there&#039;s been a little more chatter than usual in the mainstream media and on blogs about 3D virtual worlds and their relative merits. Both Google Earth and Second Life have been mooted as a paradigm......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Metaverse 2.0&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Over the past few weeks, there&#8217;s been a little more chatter than usual in the mainstream media and on blogs about 3D virtual worlds and their relative merits. Both Google Earth and Second Life have been mooted as a paradigm&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust/comment-page-1#comment-579</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jun 2006 08:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.realityprime.com/articles/metaverse-20-topology-and-trust#comment-579</guid>
		<description>I think we&#039;ve gotten ourselves an interesting conversation going, and thanks for the quick response.

Just one comment. When you refer to Cartesian space, that&#039;s the same as Euclidian space. So when you ask &quot;And why limit ourselves to Cartesian spaces?&quot;, that is what I was toying with when I looked at hyperbolic space and elliptic space. Just not sure if I got that across properly:-)

As I see it, there are two real-world constraints we can let go off when building M2: That space has to be flat (Euclidian) and that the topology has to follow the geometry of space (it can be non-contiguous, like the web.) it just took me a very long post to say that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;ve gotten ourselves an interesting conversation going, and thanks for the quick response.</p>
<p>Just one comment. When you refer to Cartesian space, that&#8217;s the same as Euclidian space. So when you ask &#8220;And why limit ourselves to Cartesian spaces?&#8221;, that is what I was toying with when I looked at hyperbolic space and elliptic space. Just not sure if I got that across properly:-)</p>
<p>As I see it, there are two real-world constraints we can let go off when building M2: That space has to be flat (Euclidian) and that the topology has to follow the geometry of space (it can be non-contiguous, like the web.) it just took me a very long post to say that.</p>
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